Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
—Matthew 15:14
What follows is my promised response to a comment on my July 8th post about Saddleback Church Pastor
Rick Warren made by someone with the Blogger nic
Cathieunderwood. Her reply was very long and only tangentially addressed the issue of my post, which was Rick Warren’s typical mega-church leader’s descent into apostasy.
Let the show begin:
To look at the current situation in the news about Pastor Rick Warren, the main question you should ask is why is Rick speaking at the ISNA conference?
Right off the blocks, I’m told I’m asking the wrong question (though I never actually asked any questions in my post). This is classic deflection; a way to steer the discussion onto a more favourable track whilst simultaneously discrediting every point your opponent has made. By implication, if you’ve asked less than crucial questions, you’ve received nothing but insignificant answers, so any conclusions you’ve reached based on these answers are themselves unworthy of consideration. This is a fairly successful verbal tactic, but it’s highly transparent and ineffective when the debate is in writing. It’s also condescending.
If only I’d been as smart as her, I wouldn’t have wasted all that time plumbing the depths of such an unfruitful seas!And just why exactly should I have asked why "Rick" is “speaking at the ISNA conference”? (Her use of “Rick” here, rather than the more natural “he”, as the pronoun referring to the antecedent “Pastor Rick Warren” is an early hint that we might be dealing with a pre-fabricated, cut-and-paste argument.) Shouldn’t the motive for the most well known pastor in the U.S. speaking to any large crowd of non-Christians be obvious? Shouldn’t it be to preach the Gospel of Christ?
Yes, it should.So now I do have a main question, Cathie: When he was speaking to thousands of unsaved souls, why didn’t Rick Warren,
America’s Pastor, preach the Gospel?
While I do not wish to offer an apologia for ISNA, I would refer you to multiple articles that describe the organization’s goals in reaching out to other faiths, including Judaism, and denouncing terrorism (Rabbi Eric Yoffie, the leader of the largest branch of American Judaism, addressed the convention two years ago; also see the AP story on July 1 by Zoll, and stories in the Christian Post, Church Solutions and even the Washington Times in the past week).
You don’t wish to offer an apologia, but you go ahead and offer one anyway.
Cute.
Well, while I don’t wish to accuse you of being astoundingly naïve, I would refer you to the multiple articles that link the ISNA to other terror-sponsoring organizations like CAIR and the Islamic Brotherhood; name and shame all the anti-Semites that appear regularly at ISNA functions; as well as prove to you that ALL Islamic organizations are in the business of promoting Islam & Allah above Christianity and Christ! Perhaps you didn’t know that “Allahu Akbar” does not mean “God is great” as Muslims claim, but rather “Allah is greater”.
Now, greater than who, I wonder?
As for Rabbi Eric Yoffie, he is a Reformed Jew who despises fundamentalist Christians (here's a
link to the transcript of his speech to the ISNA in 2007). By definition he does not believe in the literal truth of the
Tanakh, and should therefore have zero currency with fundamentalist Christians like you, Rick Warren and me. So, in what way is his speaking to a group of people dedicated to destroying Christianity, the West and Israel supposed to show that the ISNA have “denounced terrorism”?
Anyway, Cath, put simply, Muslims (and Jews) deny the divinity of Jesus, they are Antichrists, and it was Pastor Warren’s duty to them to warn them that they are damned to everlasting life in Hell should they die before believing in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and repenting of their idolatrous worship of Allah. A duty that Rick did not fulfil on July 4th because he was too busy being
oh-so-gosh-darned proud and grateful to be invited.
What I would like to clarify is Rick’s message and motive. You claim that Rick probably doesn’t have an agenda, but I would like to assert that it is his lifelong agenda that led him to accept the invitation to speak at ISNA.
Actually, I claimed no such thing. More evidence that your comment is a prepared statement, rather than you’re your own immediate response to my post.
You may have noticed that outside of Saddleback Church, and Rick’s 30 year Purpose Driven Ministry to pastors, he does very little speaking to Christian groups of believers. Instead, he invests his time speaking to groups of unbelievers that most pastors never get the opportunity to share with. He carefully considers the opportunities that God has given him to address these audiences. These are folks that Jesus died for, but would never enter a church to hear the Good News. Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Luke 5:31 (NIV)
Despite what you and Rick Warren say, no Christian worthy of the name would ever criticise you for talking to unbelievers and non-Christians. Your suggesting such a thing is pure straw-man building, a self-aggrandizing fallacy. All Christians applaud anyone who engages in outreach to those “who would never enter a church to hear the Good News”—if, that is, the person doing the outreach actually TELLS the people the Good News. You know, Cath, the very thing Rick Warren didn’t do?
The deceptive misreading and misapplication of Luke 5:31-32 didn’t escape my notice either. In these verses, the “sick” & “sinners” the Lord is referring to are not Pagans, Unbelievers and Gentiles (today’s Muslims, atheists and agnostics); the sick are apostate Jews (like Rabbi Eric Yoffie); the sinners are Jews who break the Law of Moses. It works like this: To be spiritually sick implies one began spiritually well. The spiritually well would be observant Jews; ergo the sick would be apostates. To be a sinner, one who misses the target, you need to have known what the target was and been actively trying to hit it. Only Jews at that time knew what the target was (righteousness through the keeping of the Law), so only they could miss it (sin); ergo a breaker of the Law of Moses.
Rick believes strongly that if you want to actively demonstrate the love of Christ to others as He commands us to, then you have to reach out to a variety of audiences. No one is ever convinced of God’s love by labeling, condemnation, or anger. Rick strongly believes that if we want to behave in a Christ-like example, we must not waste any time judging others (Jesus didn't), but instead, do everything we can to build relationships of love and respect and trust with others.
You are once again erecting a straw-man. No one is chastising Warren because he wasn’t angry or judgemental enough when dealing with the Unsaved, we are chastising him for keeping the Unsaved ignorant of their unsaved condition by compromising the Gospel in order to “build relationships of love and respect and trust”.

Just look at that quote again, Cathie. Do you see the glaring omission from those three aspects of these relationships Warren seeks to build? It is “Truth”; the essential element of any loving, respectful, trusting relationship. And, as all we Christians know, Jesus Christ is Truth itself.
As for not wasting “any time judging others” because “Jesus didn’t”, sorry, Cathie, but you and Warren are just flat wrong. Jesus is the Judge of Judges. He is literally mankind’s Judge, Jury and Executioner and tells us He will judge EVERYONE eventually [John 5:22; 8:26; 12:48]. He did not waste his time judging Gentiles during the First Advent, of course, because they didn’t even know who God was, or His Messiah. As well, that was not the Lord’s mission [John 12:47]. He did however pronounce a mountain of Judgement on the Scribes and Pharisees; just check out
Matthew 23!
We too are to judge, but must take care to do so correctly [John 7:24]. We are never told to “build relationships of love and respect and trust” with non-believers, we’re told to preach the Gospel to them. And we are to be especially wary of those who “have a form of godliness, but [deny] the power thereof” [2 Timothy 3:5], those who preach “any other Gospel” [Galatians 1:6-9]. Yeah, Cathie, that includes Muslims and Jews (and Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, et al). Don’t ever forget that Muslims are not mere atheists; they are Antichrists worshipping a false god and following a creed that commands them to actively work against the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ and set up a demonic Kingdom of Satan. Just what relationships do you imagine Jesus wants us to build with them?
In our secular culture, there are about a dozen different groups of influencers that we at Saddleback seek to serve and reach out to including those in academics, business, military, sports, health care, media, prisoners, entertainment, other faiths, and government. If we are to fulfill Jesus' Great Commission in the world, we must build bridges to all of these, and more. Just know the goal of every speaking engagement Rick accepts is always the same: The global glory of God. We seek to build bridges of love - from our hearts to hearts of even those we may disagree with - so that Jesus can walk across!
What does serving and reaching out to all those influencers entail? What do you do once you’ve built your bridges? Do you seek to influence them away from their ungodly behaviours and lifestyles and towards the Lord? How does reinforcing the lie that Allah and the God of the Bible are the same help establish the “global glory of God”? How does building bridges of love from our hearts to the hearts of the openly antichrist fulfil the Great Commission? I really don't think Jesus needs that kind of help.
By the way, the Lord’s Great Commission was not to “build bridges of love”; that’s unscriptural, relativist nonsense! The Great Commission was to go and “teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever [Jesus has] commanded” us [Matthew 28:18-20]. Does Rick Warren do this?
No! Did he do this to those at the ISNA conference?
Again, no! The theme of the session at which Rick will speak is “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness,” a theme most appropriate for a message on perhaps our country’s most sacred day, Independence Day. Rick will bring a message appropriate to the values of the meaning of this day on what America and all Americans, not just Muslims or Christians, need to maintain our independence. Freedom and independence were at the core of our country’s founders and those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice to protect this country across its history.
This statement is a breathtaking example of Amerocentric Idolatry! Wherever did you get the idea that Independence Day is sacred? When did God establish July 4th as a Holy Day? The American Declaration of Independence is a fine document as far as earthly political idealism goes, but it does not supersede Holy Scripture. This might come as a shock to you and Pastor Warren, and all those other Americans who equate the U.S. with the Biblical City on the Hill (Matt 5:14), but the only Nation that God cares about is Israel. Check out what happens to all the others in the Book of Revelation.
With regard to Life, Liberty and Happiness: All the Muslims, Jews, servicemen, politicians and millionaires in America working in harmony from now until Kingdom Come will never even understand what these things really are, never mind create a nation that secures them for its citizens and the world, if they don't first give their hearts, minds and souls to the author of each and every one of them, the Lord Jesus Christ.
As an aside, I’ve come across this patriotic idolatry in Americans before. Last November, my wife was in Alaska. She attended a Baptist Church service in, I think, Fairbanks, where the Pastor was preaching on the Financial Crisis and how America would pull through no matter how bad the situation became. He said America couldn’t fail, because it was “too good and too strong”! The idolatry and pride in that statement alone, coming as it did from a supposedly Bible-believing Christian, is all the proof you need that American Christianity is in a very unhealthy state.
As a pastor, Rick intimately understands these values, particularly the value of religious freedom, and will fiercely advocate for them unashamedly in front of any audience. But religious freedom means the right to practice the religion of one’s choice regardless of whether or not others agree with a particular religion’s tenets, and the freedom to associate for the common good of all Americans and for those less fortunate than us around the world. That is a value that is not only part of our heritage as Americans, but also a commandment of Jesus Christ.
Regardless of what you thought you were saying, all these statements do is display your ignorance of the guiding principals and values of your Founding Fathers, as well as your ahistoricity with respect to your nation’s heritage. The freedom of religion you’re speaking of was freedom to worship Christ without interference from the state. The Founding Fathers came from a Britain wherein only one form of Christian worship was permitted BY LAW. At no time did they seek to establish a right to worship anything and everything. They wouldn’t even have been able to conceive of a nation state where freedom to worship Satan, a tree or one’s own sinful self was a protected right. The very idea would have struck them as monstrous; which is exactly how your idea that somewhere in the Bible Jesus commanded His followers to set up this kind of nation state strikes me!
I appreciate the opportunity to clarify Rick’s appearance before ISNA and would refer you to a recent issue of Rick’s “News and Views” in which he thoroughly discusses why he speaks to a variety of audiences.
You’re welcome, Cathie, but, as I said above, I really didn’t need you to clarify that. But I am grateful for the link. It saved me a bit of time by leading me directly to proof of Rick Warren’s apostasy in his own words. I’d also be grateful if you were to let him see this response to your comment, it just might help get him back on track. If it’s too long, and he doesn’t have time to read it all, just refer him to
1 Timothy 6. He won’t find anything to bolster any of my arguments there, but he will find Scriptural advice from the Apostle Paul that any pastor whose bank account is bigger than his yearly mortgage payments would do well to heed.
Shalom in Yeshua,
jsk